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	<title>Comments on: Boy, Are Americans Not Overtaxed: New CBO Data</title>
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	<link>http://jaredbernsteinblog.com/boy-are-americans-not-overtaxed-new-cbo-data/</link>
	<description>Facts, Thoughts, and Commentary</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Fri, 24 May 2013 19:46:27 +0000</lastBuildDate>
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		<title>By: Misaki</title>
		<link>http://jaredbernsteinblog.com/boy-are-americans-not-overtaxed-new-cbo-data/#comment-235964</link>
		<dc:creator>Misaki</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 16 Jul 2012 05:04:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://jaredbernsteinblog.com/?p=5792#comment-235964</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[It seems like they can afford it. From the NYTimes:

“This group is key because the top 5 percent of income earners accounts for about one-third of spending, and the top 20 percent accounts for close to 60 percent of spending,” said Mark Zandi, chief economist of Moody’s Analytics. “That was key to why we suffered such a bad recession — their spending fell very sharply.”]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It seems like they can afford it. From the NYTimes:</p>
<p>“This group is key because the top 5 percent of income earners accounts for about one-third of spending, and the top 20 percent accounts for close to 60 percent of spending,” said Mark Zandi, chief economist of Moody’s Analytics. “That was key to why we suffered such a bad recession — their spending fell very sharply.”</p>
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		<title>By: Matt</title>
		<link>http://jaredbernsteinblog.com/boy-are-americans-not-overtaxed-new-cbo-data/#comment-232249</link>
		<dc:creator>Matt</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 12 Jul 2012 14:33:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://jaredbernsteinblog.com/?p=5792#comment-232249</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Your right that state and local taxes offset the progressiveness of federal taxes, but isn&#039;t it fair that each bracket of taxpayers have a similar share of both taxes and income? It is confusing to hear policymakers to talk about how taxes are fair or unfair when no one knows what they consider fair.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Your right that state and local taxes offset the progressiveness of federal taxes, but isn&#8217;t it fair that each bracket of taxpayers have a similar share of both taxes and income? It is confusing to hear policymakers to talk about how taxes are fair or unfair when no one knows what they consider fair.</p>
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		<title>By: Jared Bernstein</title>
		<link>http://jaredbernsteinblog.com/boy-are-americans-not-overtaxed-new-cbo-data/#comment-232231</link>
		<dc:creator>Jared Bernstein</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 12 Jul 2012 14:11:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://jaredbernsteinblog.com/?p=5792#comment-232231</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[As I stressed in my post: the decline in effective rates over the 2000s was largely policy--over the downturn, 2007-09 in these data, both the economy and policy were in play.  Mostly the economy, I suspect, as you point out, but policy mattered too--expansions of CTC and EITC and Making Work Pay (2009) all lower tax liabilities for middle and lower income HHs.  Where you see pure economy effects are in the top 1%, whose rate went up a bit in 2009 because they had large capital losses and their incomes are well above the top threshold so they don&#039;t benefit from slipping into lower rates.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>As I stressed in my post: the decline in effective rates over the 2000s was largely policy&#8211;over the downturn, 2007-09 in these data, both the economy and policy were in play.  Mostly the economy, I suspect, as you point out, but policy mattered too&#8211;expansions of CTC and EITC and Making Work Pay (2009) all lower tax liabilities for middle and lower income HHs.  Where you see pure economy effects are in the top 1%, whose rate went up a bit in 2009 because they had large capital losses and their incomes are well above the top threshold so they don&#8217;t benefit from slipping into lower rates.</p>
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		<title>By: Cory F.</title>
		<link>http://jaredbernsteinblog.com/boy-are-americans-not-overtaxed-new-cbo-data/#comment-232229</link>
		<dc:creator>Cory F.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 12 Jul 2012 14:07:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://jaredbernsteinblog.com/?p=5792#comment-232229</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Correction:
1. Average after-tax income fell notably, owing to a drop in market income caused by the recession that began in December 2007 that was only partially offset by increases in government transfers and decreases in federal taxes. 

2. Since the CBO also acknowledged that &quot;Average tax rates depend on tax laws and economic conditions.&quot;]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Correction:<br />
1. Average after-tax income fell notably, owing to a drop in market income caused by the recession that began in December 2007 that was only partially offset by increases in government transfers and decreases in federal taxes. </p>
<p>2. Since the CBO also acknowledged that &#8220;Average tax rates depend on tax laws and economic conditions.&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: Cory F.</title>
		<link>http://jaredbernsteinblog.com/boy-are-americans-not-overtaxed-new-cbo-data/#comment-232209</link>
		<dc:creator>Cory F.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 12 Jul 2012 13:50:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://jaredbernsteinblog.com/?p=5792#comment-232209</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Dr.JB,
The very first sentence of the report states &quot;The recent recession has had a substantial impact on income, the amount of taxes owed, and average tax rates.&quot;  Isn&#039;t it entirely plausible and likely that the decrease in tax rates is due mostly to the fact that incomes dropped and people migrated to lower tax brackets thus causing a lower average rate?  

In fact, the CBO effectively acknowledged such with this statement: &quot;Average after-tax income fell notably, owing to a drop in market income caused by the recession that began  in December 2007 thatand decreases in federal taxes.&quot;  Since the CBO also acknowledged t was only partially offset by increases in government transfers hat &quot;Average tax rates depend on tax laws and economic conditions&quot;, and since the economic climate started deteriorating in 2007 and culminated in 2009 with over 10% umemployment, then wouldn&#039;t a snapshot look at 2009 tax rates be more heavily influenced by the accumulated effects of the economic downturn moreso than any tax policy that President Obama got passed in 2009? 

Finally, the report also states:

Because average federal tax rates rise with income, the share of federal taxes paid by higher-income households exceeded their share of before-tax income, and the opposite was true for lower-income households. 

In 2009, the shares of federal taxes paid by households in certain income quintiles were: 

Lowest quintile: 0.3 percent 
Middle quintile: 9.4 percent 
Highest quintile: 67.9 percent 

I would assert that contrary to your assertion, there is a group of Americans who probably are overtaxed.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Dr.JB,<br />
The very first sentence of the report states &#8220;The recent recession has had a substantial impact on income, the amount of taxes owed, and average tax rates.&#8221;  Isn&#8217;t it entirely plausible and likely that the decrease in tax rates is due mostly to the fact that incomes dropped and people migrated to lower tax brackets thus causing a lower average rate?  </p>
<p>In fact, the CBO effectively acknowledged such with this statement: &#8220;Average after-tax income fell notably, owing to a drop in market income caused by the recession that began  in December 2007 thatand decreases in federal taxes.&#8221;  Since the CBO also acknowledged t was only partially offset by increases in government transfers hat &#8220;Average tax rates depend on tax laws and economic conditions&#8221;, and since the economic climate started deteriorating in 2007 and culminated in 2009 with over 10% umemployment, then wouldn&#8217;t a snapshot look at 2009 tax rates be more heavily influenced by the accumulated effects of the economic downturn moreso than any tax policy that President Obama got passed in 2009? </p>
<p>Finally, the report also states:</p>
<p>Because average federal tax rates rise with income, the share of federal taxes paid by higher-income households exceeded their share of before-tax income, and the opposite was true for lower-income households. </p>
<p>In 2009, the shares of federal taxes paid by households in certain income quintiles were: </p>
<p>Lowest quintile: 0.3 percent<br />
Middle quintile: 9.4 percent<br />
Highest quintile: 67.9 percent </p>
<p>I would assert that contrary to your assertion, there is a group of Americans who probably are overtaxed.</p>
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		<title>By: readerOfTeaLeaves</title>
		<link>http://jaredbernsteinblog.com/boy-are-americans-not-overtaxed-new-cbo-data/#comment-231643</link>
		<dc:creator>readerOfTeaLeaves</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 12 Jul 2012 00:55:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://jaredbernsteinblog.com/?p=5792#comment-231643</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Dr. Bernstein (and OTE&#039;ers), relevant to this post is an OpEd in today&#039;s NYT by Hanauer and Liu, authors of &quot;The Gardens of Democracy&quot; (2011), about the economic metaphors we use and how those affect our thinking about taxation (and other topics). 

I happen to agree with their analysis that (economics) metaphors matter, and the EMH metaphor assumes that taxes only &#039;extract&#039; from the  &#039;jobs machine&#039; that we call &#039;The Economy&#039;.  

It logically follows that taxes are assumed to always and everywhere &#039;shrink the pie&#039; of economic activity. Ergo, this EMH metaphor sets up an intellectual straight-jacket in which tax rates always have to be &#039;lowered&#039;, as a consequence of the serious misconception that &#039;rich people create jobs by investing&#039;.  (After all, due to  the limitations of the EMH metaphor: if markets are always perfect, then anything -- like taxes -- that happens &#039;outside&#039; markets is assumed to be economically dire and curiously damaging to markets.)

We&#039;ve seen how this metaphor plays out, and the results are ludicrous. We&#039;re caught up in the sticky webs of our own bad metaphors, arguing over arcane tax regs and rates; meanwhile, economic inequality and social instability escalate.  We end up spending our energy arguing about whether we pay &#039;more than people in Nation X&#039;, as if we&#039;re all racing our &#039;economic engines&#039; in some kind of mad-dash F1 series of Grand Tax Competition; some strange Romneyrama of Tax Avoidance, in which it is assumed that whoever pays the lowest taxes is the &#039;winner&#039;.  The role that taxes can play in making a more civil, sustainable economic culture is lost entirely in this paradigm of &#039;Machinebrain&#039; EMH economic assumptions. 

I also happen to agree with Hanauer and Liu&#039;s &#039;Gardenbrain&#039; economic metaphor, which posits that economics is a social activity, and consequently:  (a) the more interactions that occur, (b) the more prosperous the economy, and therefore (c) everyone does better when everyone does better.  

The Gardenbrain metaphor does not limit us to asking merely &#039;do we pay more than others&#039;?  Instead, it focuses on questions like: &#039;are we using tax revenue to create the kinds of longer term, sustainable &#039;economic feedback loops&#039; that creates shared prosperity?  In other words, in the Gardenbrain metaphor (at least, as I understand it) taxes are more like humus or compost: if you want good results you need good soil.  Taxes are like the layer of dirt from which other good things will emerge over time, given reasonable tending and attention.

In this paradigm, concentrated wealth is a symptom that the overall system is stressed: it limits the number and quality of the economic  feedback loops.  It&#039;s like saying your economic &#039;soil&#039; is too acidic, or contains too few nutrients to sustain economic fertility (as in say, Somalia or Chad).  It&#039;s not merely a technical problem: it&#039;s a recognition that complex adaptive systems (like economies) require a basic level of ... well, &#039;basic nutrients&#039;, that go by the name &#039;taxes&#039;.  The issue of how to make those tax dollars more accountable is related to getting more feedback loops in the system; the better the information circulating around, the healthier the system will become.


So I think the post falls prey to a set of assumptions about &#039;how much&#039; (relative to Nation X) taxation is acceptable, which kind of keeps us stuck in the Machinebrain EMH metaphors that we&#039;ve already been stuck in too long.  I&#039;m aggravated about taxes, but my frustration is more tied to a lack of accountability for where all that money goes.  That&#039;s an information issue, more related to the needs of a complex, adaptive system.  

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/07/11/opinion/our-gardenbrain-economy.html?_r=2]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Dr. Bernstein (and OTE&#8217;ers), relevant to this post is an OpEd in today&#8217;s NYT by Hanauer and Liu, authors of &#8220;The Gardens of Democracy&#8221; (2011), about the economic metaphors we use and how those affect our thinking about taxation (and other topics). </p>
<p>I happen to agree with their analysis that (economics) metaphors matter, and the EMH metaphor assumes that taxes only &#8216;extract&#8217; from the  &#8216;jobs machine&#8217; that we call &#8216;The Economy&#8217;.  </p>
<p>It logically follows that taxes are assumed to always and everywhere &#8216;shrink the pie&#8217; of economic activity. Ergo, this EMH metaphor sets up an intellectual straight-jacket in which tax rates always have to be &#8216;lowered&#8217;, as a consequence of the serious misconception that &#8216;rich people create jobs by investing&#8217;.  (After all, due to  the limitations of the EMH metaphor: if markets are always perfect, then anything &#8212; like taxes &#8212; that happens &#8216;outside&#8217; markets is assumed to be economically dire and curiously damaging to markets.)</p>
<p>We&#8217;ve seen how this metaphor plays out, and the results are ludicrous. We&#8217;re caught up in the sticky webs of our own bad metaphors, arguing over arcane tax regs and rates; meanwhile, economic inequality and social instability escalate.  We end up spending our energy arguing about whether we pay &#8216;more than people in Nation X&#8217;, as if we&#8217;re all racing our &#8216;economic engines&#8217; in some kind of mad-dash F1 series of Grand Tax Competition; some strange Romneyrama of Tax Avoidance, in which it is assumed that whoever pays the lowest taxes is the &#8216;winner&#8217;.  The role that taxes can play in making a more civil, sustainable economic culture is lost entirely in this paradigm of &#8216;Machinebrain&#8217; EMH economic assumptions. </p>
<p>I also happen to agree with Hanauer and Liu&#8217;s &#8216;Gardenbrain&#8217; economic metaphor, which posits that economics is a social activity, and consequently:  (a) the more interactions that occur, (b) the more prosperous the economy, and therefore (c) everyone does better when everyone does better.  </p>
<p>The Gardenbrain metaphor does not limit us to asking merely &#8216;do we pay more than others&#8217;?  Instead, it focuses on questions like: &#8216;are we using tax revenue to create the kinds of longer term, sustainable &#8216;economic feedback loops&#8217; that creates shared prosperity?  In other words, in the Gardenbrain metaphor (at least, as I understand it) taxes are more like humus or compost: if you want good results you need good soil.  Taxes are like the layer of dirt from which other good things will emerge over time, given reasonable tending and attention.</p>
<p>In this paradigm, concentrated wealth is a symptom that the overall system is stressed: it limits the number and quality of the economic  feedback loops.  It&#8217;s like saying your economic &#8216;soil&#8217; is too acidic, or contains too few nutrients to sustain economic fertility (as in say, Somalia or Chad).  It&#8217;s not merely a technical problem: it&#8217;s a recognition that complex adaptive systems (like economies) require a basic level of &#8230; well, &#8216;basic nutrients&#8217;, that go by the name &#8216;taxes&#8217;.  The issue of how to make those tax dollars more accountable is related to getting more feedback loops in the system; the better the information circulating around, the healthier the system will become.</p>
<p>So I think the post falls prey to a set of assumptions about &#8216;how much&#8217; (relative to Nation X) taxation is acceptable, which kind of keeps us stuck in the Machinebrain EMH metaphors that we&#8217;ve already been stuck in too long.  I&#8217;m aggravated about taxes, but my frustration is more tied to a lack of accountability for where all that money goes.  That&#8217;s an information issue, more related to the needs of a complex, adaptive system.  </p>
<p><a href="http://www.nytimes.com/2012/07/11/opinion/our-gardenbrain-economy.html?_r=2" rel="nofollow">http://www.nytimes.com/2012/07/11/opinion/our-gardenbrain-economy.html?_r=2</a></p>
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		<title>By: perplexed</title>
		<link>http://jaredbernsteinblog.com/boy-are-americans-not-overtaxed-new-cbo-data/#comment-231584</link>
		<dc:creator>perplexed</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 11 Jul 2012 23:56:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://jaredbernsteinblog.com/?p=5792#comment-231584</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[-&quot;...the relevant question, again, given what’s on the table, is can we finally allow the highend cuts to expire? That would be a huge accomplishment...&quot;

It certainly would be a huge accomplishment; and its already achieved by doing nothing! Why do we let the Republicans unilaterally decide what&#039;s on the table? Maybe its time to put rejection of the highly coercive Norquist pledge on the table?

I think you have greater confidence in the ability of the administration to negotiate a worthwhile compromise than is likely given the opposition. If you&#039;re not willing to walk away, you&#039;re already at a disadvantage that the current crop of Republicans will surely exploit. Doing nothing is an option too, often the most overlooked, even when it might be the best option.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>-&#8221;&#8230;the relevant question, again, given what’s on the table, is can we finally allow the highend cuts to expire? That would be a huge accomplishment&#8230;&#8221;</p>
<p>It certainly would be a huge accomplishment; and its already achieved by doing nothing! Why do we let the Republicans unilaterally decide what&#8217;s on the table? Maybe its time to put rejection of the highly coercive Norquist pledge on the table?</p>
<p>I think you have greater confidence in the ability of the administration to negotiate a worthwhile compromise than is likely given the opposition. If you&#8217;re not willing to walk away, you&#8217;re already at a disadvantage that the current crop of Republicans will surely exploit. Doing nothing is an option too, often the most overlooked, even when it might be the best option.</p>
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		<title>By: Misaki</title>
		<link>http://jaredbernsteinblog.com/boy-are-americans-not-overtaxed-new-cbo-data/#comment-231546</link>
		<dc:creator>Misaki</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 11 Jul 2012 23:17:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://jaredbernsteinblog.com/?p=5792#comment-231546</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[&gt;But I just don’t see how, based on these facts, anyone can make a case that we’re overtaxed

Rent, which should include things like the license to practice medicine (since residencies per year are limited despite many applicants from within and outside the US) will be higher when inequality is high (due, again, to imperfect price discrimination) which... might lead to these things having a higher cost. Health costs have definitely gone up, since most people have insurance where everyone pays for expensive or unnecessary care. Anecdotally, housing costs in places like New York have been going up which probably affects people with low income, possibly causing them to wish taxes were lower...

If no one thought we were overtaxed, would they have any interest in news stories about $17k drip pans? Maybe that would just be seen as proof of high quality, due to the assumption that everything about the US is, and should be, better than in say Europe?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&gt;But I just don’t see how, based on these facts, anyone can make a case that we’re overtaxed</p>
<p>Rent, which should include things like the license to practice medicine (since residencies per year are limited despite many applicants from within and outside the US) will be higher when inequality is high (due, again, to imperfect price discrimination) which&#8230; might lead to these things having a higher cost. Health costs have definitely gone up, since most people have insurance where everyone pays for expensive or unnecessary care. Anecdotally, housing costs in places like New York have been going up which probably affects people with low income, possibly causing them to wish taxes were lower&#8230;</p>
<p>If no one thought we were overtaxed, would they have any interest in news stories about $17k drip pans? Maybe that would just be seen as proof of high quality, due to the assumption that everything about the US is, and should be, better than in say Europe?</p>
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		<title>By: Jared Bernstein</title>
		<link>http://jaredbernsteinblog.com/boy-are-americans-not-overtaxed-new-cbo-data/#comment-231488</link>
		<dc:creator>Jared Bernstein</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 11 Jul 2012 22:15:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://jaredbernsteinblog.com/?p=5792#comment-231488</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Lots of people have asked about this...For the most part, state and local taxes and more regressive than Fed taxes, so you&#039;d see higher rates at the bottom and middle, for sure.  The question is, would they change the trend?  I&#039;m not sure, because there&#039;s not a ton of work on this--it&#039;s quite demanding to collect all the information about state/local tax structures...CTJ does the best work on it: http://ctj.org/ctjreports/2012/04/who_pays_taxes_in_america.php

I doubt that state/local taxes have trended up enough to offset the negative trend in effective federal rates I document in the post.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Lots of people have asked about this&#8230;For the most part, state and local taxes and more regressive than Fed taxes, so you&#8217;d see higher rates at the bottom and middle, for sure.  The question is, would they change the trend?  I&#8217;m not sure, because there&#8217;s not a ton of work on this&#8211;it&#8217;s quite demanding to collect all the information about state/local tax structures&#8230;CTJ does the best work on it: <a href="http://ctj.org/ctjreports/2012/04/who_pays_taxes_in_america.php" rel="nofollow">http://ctj.org/ctjreports/2012/04/who_pays_taxes_in_america.php</a></p>
<p>I doubt that state/local taxes have trended up enough to offset the negative trend in effective federal rates I document in the post.</p>
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		<title>By: Jared Bernstein</title>
		<link>http://jaredbernsteinblog.com/boy-are-americans-not-overtaxed-new-cbo-data/#comment-231486</link>
		<dc:creator>Jared Bernstein</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 11 Jul 2012 22:10:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://jaredbernsteinblog.com/?p=5792#comment-231486</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Yes--someone else asked about this too...the VATs in Europe/Scandinavia, eg, collect much more revenue and use it to provide many more public goods, including health care!]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yes&#8211;someone else asked about this too&#8230;the VATs in Europe/Scandinavia, eg, collect much more revenue and use it to provide many more public goods, including health care!</p>
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