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	<title>Comments on: That Tireless Cruncher of Numbers&#8230;</title>
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	<description>Facts, Thoughts, and Commentary</description>
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		<title>By: perplexed</title>
		<link>http://jaredbernsteinblog.com/that-tireless-cruncher-of-numbers/#comment-19561</link>
		<dc:creator>perplexed</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 14 Sep 2011 20:22:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://jaredbernsteinblog.com/?p=2111#comment-19561</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Unfortunately your &quot;competing meme,&quot; while probably true, will do little to convince those that benefit to alter what they&#039;re in control of to their detriment. Remember that the wealth and income concentration of the last 30 years continues unabated while all of this discussion goes on to little avail. 

It may well be that the best we can do under the circumstances is to focus on changing the campaign finance laws to eliminate government capture by a wealthy minority. This would at least allow those representing our children to be able to peacefully implement the wealth, estate, and income taxes that will be so desperately needed when their generation becomes more powerful (while simultaneously becoming more desperate as well). Those that think the youth of today are going to quietly accept and go along with this &quot;inheritance&quot; of trillions of dollars of wealth and income concentrated among a very few, huge government debts, worn out infrastructure, uncontrolled &amp; ridiculously high health care costs, declining real incomes for the poor and middle class, the tremendous retirement costs associated with a rapidly aging population, costly cleanup of neglectful environmental policies, unprecedented competition from abroad along with unprecedented environmental and resources challenges etc., etc., either don&#039;t have kids or is no longer listening to them; or maybe they&#039;ve raided their kid&#039;s stash and are smoking something very powerful, who knows.

It really helps when you&#039;re driving to pick up your head once in a while and look down the road a bit. Maybe you can avoid a disaster or two that you really didn&#039;t see coming by being so focused on the first 30&#039; in front of your car.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Unfortunately your &#8220;competing meme,&#8221; while probably true, will do little to convince those that benefit to alter what they&#8217;re in control of to their detriment. Remember that the wealth and income concentration of the last 30 years continues unabated while all of this discussion goes on to little avail. </p>
<p>It may well be that the best we can do under the circumstances is to focus on changing the campaign finance laws to eliminate government capture by a wealthy minority. This would at least allow those representing our children to be able to peacefully implement the wealth, estate, and income taxes that will be so desperately needed when their generation becomes more powerful (while simultaneously becoming more desperate as well). Those that think the youth of today are going to quietly accept and go along with this &#8220;inheritance&#8221; of trillions of dollars of wealth and income concentrated among a very few, huge government debts, worn out infrastructure, uncontrolled &amp; ridiculously high health care costs, declining real incomes for the poor and middle class, the tremendous retirement costs associated with a rapidly aging population, costly cleanup of neglectful environmental policies, unprecedented competition from abroad along with unprecedented environmental and resources challenges etc., etc., either don&#8217;t have kids or is no longer listening to them; or maybe they&#8217;ve raided their kid&#8217;s stash and are smoking something very powerful, who knows.</p>
<p>It really helps when you&#8217;re driving to pick up your head once in a while and look down the road a bit. Maybe you can avoid a disaster or two that you really didn&#8217;t see coming by being so focused on the first 30&#8242; in front of your car.</p>
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		<title>By: perplexed</title>
		<link>http://jaredbernsteinblog.com/that-tireless-cruncher-of-numbers/#comment-19536</link>
		<dc:creator>perplexed</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 14 Sep 2011 18:46:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://jaredbernsteinblog.com/?p=2111#comment-19536</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I didn&#039;t mean to insinuate you were trying to hide something - your assumptions are clearly right up right up front and your analysis is appreciated.

My concern is that we not over estimate the jobs impact of these tax cuts when better options exist for what little stimulus spending we will ultimately get. It plays into the hands of the &quot;stimulus doesn&#039;t work&quot; critics and doesn&#039;t get the $&#039;s to those most in need. The effects on the economy don&#039;t depend much on who first puts the money in circulation, only that it ends up there; so cycle it through those that need it the most (who are the same people that will simultaneously give us the &quot;biggest bang for the buck).]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I didn&#8217;t mean to insinuate you were trying to hide something &#8211; your assumptions are clearly right up right up front and your analysis is appreciated.</p>
<p>My concern is that we not over estimate the jobs impact of these tax cuts when better options exist for what little stimulus spending we will ultimately get. It plays into the hands of the &#8220;stimulus doesn&#8217;t work&#8221; critics and doesn&#8217;t get the $&#8217;s to those most in need. The effects on the economy don&#8217;t depend much on who first puts the money in circulation, only that it ends up there; so cycle it through those that need it the most (who are the same people that will simultaneously give us the &#8220;biggest bang for the buck).</p>
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		<title>By: fyzzics</title>
		<link>http://jaredbernsteinblog.com/that-tireless-cruncher-of-numbers/#comment-19323</link>
		<dc:creator>fyzzics</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 14 Sep 2011 03:55:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://jaredbernsteinblog.com/?p=2111#comment-19323</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Dan, your graph from FRED (what a great resource!) shows just the GDP and unemployment rates, while Okun&#039;s Law is concerned with the rate of change of those quantities (the percent changes, as I used them in my calculation) which are really hard to see on a plot like that one.  A nice post on an article looking at Okun&#039;s law both historically and for the current &quot;troubles&quot; is on &lt;a href=&quot;http://economistsview.typepad.com/economistsview/2011/07/historical-patterns-okuns-law-and-the-great-recession.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt; Economist&#039;s View &lt;/a&gt;.  It shows I think that Okun&#039;s law can be used as it is usually done, even now, as an empirical approximation - not super accurate, but a guide to reasonable estimates.

Perplexed, you are right that the results are dependent on my assumption of how the payroll tax holiday maps into GDP spending.  But at least I showed my work - the dependence is linear.  If we instead assume the 1.25 multiplier Zandi used, and your 50% number, we get 500,000 jobs.  I tend to think that Zandi is well aware of the propensity to save that various income groups have, and so at least some of your objections are already included in his estimate.  Of course, I have no way of really knowing this.  Perhaps I am naive.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Dan, your graph from FRED (what a great resource!) shows just the GDP and unemployment rates, while Okun&#8217;s Law is concerned with the rate of change of those quantities (the percent changes, as I used them in my calculation) which are really hard to see on a plot like that one.  A nice post on an article looking at Okun&#8217;s law both historically and for the current &#8220;troubles&#8221; is on <a href="http://economistsview.typepad.com/economistsview/2011/07/historical-patterns-okuns-law-and-the-great-recession.html" rel="nofollow"> Economist&#8217;s View </a>.  It shows I think that Okun&#8217;s law can be used as it is usually done, even now, as an empirical approximation &#8211; not super accurate, but a guide to reasonable estimates.</p>
<p>Perplexed, you are right that the results are dependent on my assumption of how the payroll tax holiday maps into GDP spending.  But at least I showed my work &#8211; the dependence is linear.  If we instead assume the 1.25 multiplier Zandi used, and your 50% number, we get 500,000 jobs.  I tend to think that Zandi is well aware of the propensity to save that various income groups have, and so at least some of your objections are already included in his estimate.  Of course, I have no way of really knowing this.  Perhaps I am naive.</p>
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		<title>By: perplexed</title>
		<link>http://jaredbernsteinblog.com/that-tireless-cruncher-of-numbers/#comment-18854</link>
		<dc:creator>perplexed</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 12 Sep 2011 20:35:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://jaredbernsteinblog.com/?p=2111#comment-18854</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[&quot;Simplemindedly assuming it all goes into GDP&quot;

My guess is your conclusions are very sensitive to this unrealistic assumption. These tax breaks are heavily weighted to the higher end of the income scale - many of whom are in under-water mortgages and facing &quot;balance sheet recession&quot; problems. A very significant proportion of these tax breaks will be used to pay down debt. With no other knowledge of the real number, a better estimate of the spending portion would be 50%, and that may be too optimistic. The only ones left with a &quot;high propensity to consume&quot; are those at the low end of the income scale. We need to get whatever stimulus is available to them as they need it the most and we get the most &quot;bang for the buck.&quot; There is just way too much of what is promoted as &quot;stimulus spending&quot; going to pay down debt &amp; de-leverage. The savings and de-leveraging amounts have no stimulus effects, at all, add to the deficit, and only feed disingenuous arguments that &quot;stimulus doesn&#039;t work.&quot;

Its too bad that were in such a desperate situation to get any stimulus at all but we should at least be pushing to put whatever we can get to where it will help the most. Tax breaks for high paid workers isn&#039;t that place - that&#039;s why the republicans are most receptive to this alternative. When they&#039;re done it will probably be all that&#039;s left.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;Simplemindedly assuming it all goes into GDP&#8221;</p>
<p>My guess is your conclusions are very sensitive to this unrealistic assumption. These tax breaks are heavily weighted to the higher end of the income scale &#8211; many of whom are in under-water mortgages and facing &#8220;balance sheet recession&#8221; problems. A very significant proportion of these tax breaks will be used to pay down debt. With no other knowledge of the real number, a better estimate of the spending portion would be 50%, and that may be too optimistic. The only ones left with a &#8220;high propensity to consume&#8221; are those at the low end of the income scale. We need to get whatever stimulus is available to them as they need it the most and we get the most &#8220;bang for the buck.&#8221; There is just way too much of what is promoted as &#8220;stimulus spending&#8221; going to pay down debt &amp; de-leverage. The savings and de-leveraging amounts have no stimulus effects, at all, add to the deficit, and only feed disingenuous arguments that &#8220;stimulus doesn&#8217;t work.&#8221;</p>
<p>Its too bad that were in such a desperate situation to get any stimulus at all but we should at least be pushing to put whatever we can get to where it will help the most. Tax breaks for high paid workers isn&#8217;t that place &#8211; that&#8217;s why the republicans are most receptive to this alternative. When they&#8217;re done it will probably be all that&#8217;s left.</p>
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		<title>By: Carol</title>
		<link>http://jaredbernsteinblog.com/that-tireless-cruncher-of-numbers/#comment-18653</link>
		<dc:creator>Carol</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 12 Sep 2011 00:04:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://jaredbernsteinblog.com/?p=2111#comment-18653</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[And why oh why can&#039;t the Democrats think of a catchy name for their projects? The AJA and the PPACA, and last, but not least Obama&#039;s WTF?  Surely there&#039;s at least one clever PR person who will work with the party.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>And why oh why can&#8217;t the Democrats think of a catchy name for their projects? The AJA and the PPACA, and last, but not least Obama&#8217;s WTF?  Surely there&#8217;s at least one clever PR person who will work with the party.</p>
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		<title>By: Carol</title>
		<link>http://jaredbernsteinblog.com/that-tireless-cruncher-of-numbers/#comment-18651</link>
		<dc:creator>Carol</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 11 Sep 2011 23:58:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://jaredbernsteinblog.com/?p=2111#comment-18651</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[The &quot;jobs&quot; act is the Democratic Party version of the end of Social Security and Medicare.  The payroll tax will never be restore and SS/Medicare will not survive future general-budget cost cutting.  I&#039;ll never forgive Obama and his fellow so-called centrists for this.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The &#8220;jobs&#8221; act is the Democratic Party version of the end of Social Security and Medicare.  The payroll tax will never be restore and SS/Medicare will not survive future general-budget cost cutting.  I&#8217;ll never forgive Obama and his fellow so-called centrists for this.</p>
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		<title>By: Dan Furlano</title>
		<link>http://jaredbernsteinblog.com/that-tireless-cruncher-of-numbers/#comment-18339</link>
		<dc:creator>Dan Furlano</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 10 Sep 2011 22:25:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://jaredbernsteinblog.com/?p=2111#comment-18339</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[So explain how the math works with this chart from FRED with unemployment vs GDP.  

http://research.stlouisfed.org/fred2/graph/?g=27D


I understand (somewhat) Okun&#039;s Law and again my humble opinion with the current economic situation it shouldn&#039;t be used at all.

When productivity and demand drops like it has there is so much &quot;slack&quot; in the economy that unless you create a significant jolt the unemployment needle will not move. 

But of course the best test will be if the reduction passes.  If I were working with the republicans I would tell them to pass it asap simply becasue I believe it will have the least impact on the economy.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>So explain how the math works with this chart from FRED with unemployment vs GDP.  </p>
<p><a href="http://research.stlouisfed.org/fred2/graph/?g=27D" rel="nofollow">http://research.stlouisfed.org/fred2/graph/?g=27D</a></p>
<p>I understand (somewhat) Okun&#8217;s Law and again my humble opinion with the current economic situation it shouldn&#8217;t be used at all.</p>
<p>When productivity and demand drops like it has there is so much &#8220;slack&#8221; in the economy that unless you create a significant jolt the unemployment needle will not move. </p>
<p>But of course the best test will be if the reduction passes.  If I were working with the republicans I would tell them to pass it asap simply becasue I believe it will have the least impact on the economy.</p>
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		<title>By: joe</title>
		<link>http://jaredbernsteinblog.com/that-tireless-cruncher-of-numbers/#comment-18090</link>
		<dc:creator>joe</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 10 Sep 2011 08:46:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://jaredbernsteinblog.com/?p=2111#comment-18090</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[they should forecast 10.5% without any additional stimulus and 9% with stimulus.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>they should forecast 10.5% without any additional stimulus and 9% with stimulus.</p>
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		<title>By: oh4real</title>
		<link>http://jaredbernsteinblog.com/that-tireless-cruncher-of-numbers/#comment-18036</link>
		<dc:creator>oh4real</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 10 Sep 2011 03:38:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://jaredbernsteinblog.com/?p=2111#comment-18036</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[To add to your argument: 
- direct government spend has 1.4+ multiplier effect.
- tax cut has ~0.7x multiplier.

IMHO, payroll tax cut is almost assuredly spent so equal to direct government spend 1.4X multiplier

Bush tax cuts predominantly favored the wealthy, so 0.7X (or worse).]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>To add to your argument:<br />
- direct government spend has 1.4+ multiplier effect.<br />
- tax cut has ~0.7x multiplier.</p>
<p>IMHO, payroll tax cut is almost assuredly spent so equal to direct government spend 1.4X multiplier</p>
<p>Bush tax cuts predominantly favored the wealthy, so 0.7X (or worse).</p>
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		<title>By: oh4real</title>
		<link>http://jaredbernsteinblog.com/that-tireless-cruncher-of-numbers/#comment-18034</link>
		<dc:creator>oh4real</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 10 Sep 2011 03:34:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://jaredbernsteinblog.com/?p=2111#comment-18034</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[... and raise/eliminate the ~$100K cap.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8230; and raise/eliminate the ~$100K cap.</p>
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